Comments on 78 Notes to Self: A Tarot Journal: Strange Bedfellows

Interesting Post- as a Christian I use and meditat...

2006-10-30T10:57:00.000-05:00

Interesting Post- as a Christian I use and meditate upon Tarot cards, and can appreciate some of the tensions that exist between Christian and Pagan practitioners- and hope to be a bridge builder betweeen the two communities!

Well, that's probably impossible, anyway, to have ...

2006-10-29T12:09:00.000-05:00

Well, that's probably impossible, anyway, to have a "Christian-only" or "Pagan-only" symbolized deck as RChMI noted, Pagan symbolism is borrowed from the Egyptians, Christian symbolism borrowed from Pagans, etc. Human culture is like that, it evolves and is influenced from its surroundings and history.

Tarot was developed in a wholly Christian culture, the Church was already fully established as a "world" religion in the 15th century. Oh sure, there were still other religions in other lands outside the empire, but they were seen as barbaric and heathen. Paganism as a religion had been almost eradicated or driven underground within the "civilized world." No one in their right mind would have admitted to being Pagan then although they may have lots of pagan practices and beliefs. If you asked anyone what faith they were then, you would have gotten a funny look. Christian, of course. There really wasn't any other choice. It was either that or be burned or otherwise killed as a heretic or heathen. In reality, people don't just relinquish their deeply held beliefs that easily, so the pagan beliefs became intrinsically woven into the Christian fabric, if not in official doctrine then in practice. So you're absolutely right. However, no one in Italy or France, where tarot originated, would have necessarily seen that then, they would have simply seen the cards as based on the common understanding of Christianity at the time, which was really quite different from the Christianity we understand today.

As earth-based religions have begun to be reclaimed in more recent years, tarot has reflected that and has evolved as well to include and differentiate between the symbolisms. However, what has emerged so far has still been a mixture, a laying on of "pagan" filters over the Christian base, which was itself layered over the pagan. As I see it, there really can be no proper separation of them at this time in our collective history. The archetypes tend to be just too ingrained in our collective unconscious. Oh sure, label the Pope the Hierophant, but he's still the Pope. Change him to the High Priest...but...screw it...he's still The Pope because his meaning is still there. Not to say these efforts in deck design aren't valuable, they are, but really...we're just one spiritual soup at this point.

Wow, this is a really interestng conversation here...

2006-10-28T12:27:00.000-04:00

Wow, this is a really interestng conversation here. One thing that erks me somewhat is that some people have a PROBLEM with these overlaps and borrowings. If we could have, say, a Christian symolism only or a Pagan symbolism only tarot deck, would it really be better? I grew up pagan, but in a largely Christain culture, the Christan aspect of Tarot has enhanced my understanding of it. It could be said that as the culture around tarot itself was being Chirstianised, it was wholey appropriate for the Tarot to follow suit, since if it had not it would have spoken to an increasingly marginalised group. It does seem that the longevity of any practice, belief or culture seems to rely on its ability to reshape itself to the contemporary people.

Christian symbology borrowed from Pagan sources, a...

2006-10-27T16:51:00.000-04:00

Christian symbology borrowed from Pagan sources, as did Pagan sources borrow from Egyptian sources. The difference between Pagan and Christian intent was that the Pagan source fueled a localized audience structure and the Christian source fueled an emerging global audience structure. Only the Christian internal matrix could bring to bear the extent of what the Egyptian Mysteries needed to manifest. Sadly, the axiom of "power currupts and absolute power currupts absolutely" rang too true for the Church.

If you look at the layout for the Marseille majors as to the Divine Comedy above in the comments, Virgil is the Psychopomp that guides Dante, and in that regard Virgil is the Juggler and Dante is the Fool, while the Popess is Dante's ideal love Beatrice.

Additionally, the figures in the second rank (6, 7, 8, 9) represent Dante's Cardinal Virtues as to the Divine Comedy...
Lovers - Convivio IV.24-25.
Chariot - Convivio IV.26.
Justice - Convivio IV.27.
Hermit - Convivio IV.28.

Also in the figures on the Wheel, one can see the aspects of Dante's Fourth Circle of Hell, wherein the denizens with great howls roll weighty rocks around in a circle... only they have become attached to the rock which is now the wheel and the denizens have become Howler Monkeys.

With most of the themes within the Comedy, Dante draws upon imagery from Plato... check out the chariot and his two horses for instance, stright from the Phrædrus.

You're absolutely right, RChMI, the iconography in...

2006-10-27T13:30:00.000-04:00

You're absolutely right, RChMI, the iconography in tarot IS Christian, no doubt about it. However, there is also no doubt that Christians/The Church "borrowed" from pagan/earth-based religious symbology. Sometimes it was simply cultural but other times it was done intentionally in order to convert pagans and lay Christian meaning on top of their familiar icons. Therefore, you can see symbols in tarot that predate Christianity even though the symbolism itself is meant to be seen through the Christian filter.

I wasn't aware the Major Arcana reflected Dante, but I am not surprised. I can also easily see how acting out Dante's Divine Comedy in pageant form would be easily used as a tool of evangelism for the Church.

Have you seen the tarot deck based on Dante's Divine Comedy? I am more familiar with Dante's Inferno than with Paradiso, so I find it difficult to associate precise meanings with that deck, but it's a study I intend to get to...someday. :)

So...who might Virgil be in tarot terms?

The icongraphy within the Tarot IS Christian in it...

2006-10-26T23:16:00.000-04:00

The icongraphy within the Tarot IS Christian in its construct and symbolism. It is in fact based on the "fith" gospel of the Church... that being Dante's Divine Comedy. Most of what we think of as being "christian" in context and take for as catholic dogma is directly taken from the Comedy and not the Church or christain scriptures.

Look at almost any Tarot deck and you can see the three books of the Comedy within the cards in their proper order...
Devil/Inferno/Hell,
Tower/Purgatio/Purgatory,
Star/Paradiso/Paradise.

The Comedy was in fact written in four parts, so as to mirror the synoptic gospels. The first was eventually incorporated into the narrative of the story, but it can also be seen in the cards lineup...
Temperance/Vita Nouva/The New Life.

With an Exoteric deck (Grimaud-Marseille being the best example) one can lay out the Trumps in a manner that shows not only the entire Divine Comedy but also the lessons to be learned from the Comedy (keeping in mind that in the Exoteric deck, 8 is Justice and 11 is Force/Strength.)....

-18-19-20-21-0
-14-15-16-17
-10-11-12-13
- 6- 7- 8- 9
1-2- 3- 3- 5

Well, there are groups that see "danger" in many i...

2006-10-26T08:57:00.000-04:00

Well, there are groups that see "danger" in many innocuous things. In particular, some groups of fundamentalist Christians (see link in article about the devil inhabiting toys). Usually that kind of attitude stems from ignorance, misunderstand, and fear. These folks would see the Magic 8-ball as dangerous as well. I once pointed out to a friend that if she was going to condemn tarot cards as "evil" then she should likewise rid her home of candles, as candles are actively used by magick practicioners in the working of spells. She said no, candles were meant to give light, not work magic. So I replied that tarot cards were meant to play a game, not fortune-telling. (Score!) As for tarot divination being tarot cards "out of context," well...hmmm...it happens. I mean, as I mentioned in my post, Christianity has liberally borrowed pagan symbolism since its inception such that certain symbols have become inextricably associated with Christianity instead of the earth-based religions it all but succeeded in wiping out. As new ways of using things come to be, new contexts are created. Tarot divination, as I said, has been going on at least as long as the cards have existed due to the human propensity to divine with whatever objects seem useful for that purpose, but it was codified during the late 19th/early 20th century occult/spiritualism movement and as such has been considered a legitimate context for tarot cards since then. So, I don't think tarot divination is tarot "out of context" but simply tarot in a different context than tarot as a card game. Just as people use dominoes to build elaborate set-ups of cause-effect, or cards to build "houses of cards" and participate in competitions. We come up with different and varied uses for things and build different contexts for them.

Good response, Ginny! Athough I'm primarily a game...

2006-10-26T03:01:00.000-04:00

Good response, Ginny! Athough I'm primarily a game player, I don't see the card reading as any more dangerous than the "Magic 8-Ball" It's a curious double standard that holds card reading dangerous yet I don't recall any attacks against the 8 ball divination. I do think that the focus primarily on divination may have put tarot cards out of context for a great many years.

Yes, you're right. Tarot is played as a game and ...

2006-10-24T09:45:00.000-04:00

Yes, you're right. Tarot is played as a game and there are leagues and clubs that thrive, particularly in France, that enjoy tarot as a card game only. That was its original purpose. However, playing cards and divination have pretty much always gone hand in hand. Ever since there have been cards people have been using them as fortune telling tools. In fact, there is a longer history of this with playing cards than with tarot cards which continues today. Pretty much anything can be used and is used for divination: sticks, bones, shells, animal entrails, coffee grounds, tea leaves, books, you name it, it is used for people to intuit patterns and messages from their subconscious. Undoubtedly, however, tarot has garnered a reputation unique from playing cards that has set them apart as primarily a divination tool. I see no reason to limit any aspect or use of these wonderful cards. Many find them interesting only for their historical side, while others simply see them as a deck of cards with which to play a game. I think it would be great if more people knew about the game itself. It would serve to demystify the cards and help people understand they are not inherently occult in themselves.

I've had an experience recently which led me to th...

2006-10-24T02:06:00.000-04:00

I've had an experience recently which led me to think that tarot readings are no longer so cool.
I have found that websites about innocent harmless card games were being misclassified as "occult" by some internet filters. These harmless websites may be censored because of it. I should also note that Google is placing ads for Kasamba.com on card game websites which are giving visitors the wrong impression about the actual content of the sites.

In case you don't know it by now, tarot cards were created for playing card games and the fortune telling stuff came later.
Tarot cards are still being used for game playing, although nowadays players are useing more modern looking decks which look very different from the fortune telling deck.
Google the terms "jeu de tarot" or "tarock" for details
The practice of tarot reading, while fun for many people, is really tarot taken out of context. It is a stereotype, not against a class of people, but a stereotype against an aspect of culture.
Although tarot, in its genuine form, is a type of trick taking card game similar to spades, sheepshead, and euchre, the metaphysical folks have misrepresented it to the world at large in connection with fortune telling.
Although well-meaning, the metaphysical crowd have been doing damage to a lesser known but important aspect of the world's gaming culture.